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BACK STORY WITH DANA LEWIS
Dana Lewis is a veteran World Affairs Correspondent. He's been everywhere. From global war zones to the streets of London where he is based.
He has been based in Jerusalem, and Moscow.
And he loves talking to people about whats behind the headlines. Award winning. "A real in the trenches reporter". Great interviewing skills and easy to listen to.
BACK STORY WITH DANA LEWIS
Frontline Perspectives From Israeli Soldiers - Exploring the Complexities of Israeli Urban Warfare and the Path to Peace
On Back Story this week, the realities of urban and tunnel warfare through the eyes of Israeli soldiers battling Hamas in Gaza.
Backstory takes you to the frontline with me, Dana Lewis, as we navigate the harrowing complexities of a conflict that blurs the lines between military strategy and civilian safety. Our guests, including IDF reservists Kerin Sokolov and Matan Yaffe, alongside David Sherez from TIKUN 2024, share the moral quandaries faced by those in uniform and the resilience that holds Israeli society together even as it grapples with international scrutiny and a profound civilian toll.
And what's next for Israel and it's Palestinian neighbours? Israeli's can't agree on a path forward,. and that includes proposals for a 2 state solution.
So I think the thing is that you need to go from building to building, from tunnel to tunnel. You need to do it in a very thorough way. You have no other option. Missiles, guns and also hostages are all within the civilians and there is no other way to deal with it. So the situation is impossible, but you have to do it.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:I think it's definitely achievable, but I think it won't be achieved very easily. The fact that something can be achieved doesn't mean it can achieve without very high amount of friction and without different kinds of interventions. So Army Force is definitely a necessity at this moment of time because there is a live terror organization doing terrible things that we couldn't imagine.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:I do have hope. I see it very complicated and I admit that October 7th gives me a big hit to my belly and a lot of scary thoughts. But I still have Palestinian friends that live here. Like Matan said before, a lot of the pain that they feel is also caused by Hamas, just like us. It's important to keep that awareness of who the people are and who our partners can be.
Dana Lewis:Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of Backstory. I'm Dana Lewis. As we speak, the war in Gaza rages. There were reports on the ground of heavy fighting. The Israeli units now seem less organized, more rag tag, but still able to fire RPGs and anti-tank missiles at Israeli soldiers in their tank units, which, in turn, are using intelligence from captured Hamas fighters to search out more tunnels and above ground firing points. And always, the search continues for Israeli hostages, still reportedly 140 more or less held in inhuman conditions Outside. The world calls for a ceasefire, as Palestinian casualties are more than 30,000 dead this week.
Dana Lewis:On Backstory, I speak to Israeli soldiers calling for unity in Israel, believing that their country is facing an existential struggle. No doubt it is. The Israeli army in Israel of tomorrow is a huge question mark, to be defined by the current conflict, which will continue for months to come, despite calls for it to stop. Now I'm excited to bring you these next three guests soldiers in the Israeli Defense Forces, different backgrounds, different views, but brought together in crisis with you know, I think we're about to hear that they have somewhat mutual views of where to go from here in Israel. So David Sharaz is a founding member of TIKIN 2024, a nonpartisan organization led by Reservis intent on preserving the spirit of cooperation brought on by war. That's what they say. Perin Sokolov is a major in the IDF reserve and Matan Yaffe also a reservist who just came back from Gaza. So can I, if you don't mind, start with you, david? You were just in Gaza. Can you tell me what kind of war you saw and you were participated in on the ground? I mean, what is really going on there?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :Yes, so I can share that the situation is the most challenging situation I have ever seen since. The mix between army-like organization of Hamas, who invested tons of millions of dollars and energy and time to build a and prepare within the civilians to this kind of war of violent conflict, creates a situation which is almost impossible to deal with, requires to be both very effective in the process of sharp, while being very firm and even aggressive when it's needed. The situation started on October 7th with the most brutal violent attack, a surprise attack on the, with almost 1,500 victims that were brutally killed, kidnapped, raped, and so this is a situation that you can't deal with.
Dana Lewis:A positive outcome, I guess what I want to hear from you, if you don't mind me jumping in a little bit, is because there's a lot to talk about, a lot of the images shared around the world are of civilian casualties, palestinians being herded from the north to the south in refugee camps and Israel bombing from the sky, the aftermath of horrendous destruction in the homes where over 2 million people lived, and there's not much left in a lot of places right now, but on the ground. I assume that the reason for all of this destruction is you are being engaged by Hamas fighters who are popping up out of these tunnels and are carrying on a real fight there. I mean, you've witnessed a real fight. Amidst all of the things that we see in the images we see on television around the world, can you tell?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :me about that. So I think the thing is that you need to go from building to building, from tunnel to tunnel. You need to do it in a very thorough way. You have no other option. Missiles, gun and also hostages are all within the civilians and there is no other way to deal with it. So the situation is impossible. But you have to do it as a sovereign country, in defending our people, in making sure that these kinds of attacks would not happen again, and this is something that, eventually, you have no other choice than just to be there on the ground, from house to house. That's the situation.
Dana Lewis:Matan, let me ask you what you saw and do you think that the goal, as stated by the Israeli cabinet, the war cabinet, is achievable the elimination of Hamasda.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:I think it's definitely achievable, but I think it won't be achieved very easily and the fact that something can be achieved doesn't mean it can achieve without very high amount of friction and without different kinds of interventions. So Army Force is definitely a necessity at this moment of time because there is a live terror organization doing terrible things that we couldn't imagine five and a half months ago and, despite the fact that we've seen things before, this was a new extreme. So definitely the use of Army Force is a necessity at this point of time and this should come along together with many things. And I think that here the international community has a big role in condemning unanimously what is being done over there and understand that at the moment, both the Israeli citizens that are hurting and the Palestinian citizens that are hurting are both hurting because of Hamas. Hamas is doing horrific things both to us and to the Palestinians, that he uses them in the most cynical, disruptive way as human shields and using their homes and their schools and their hospitals as bomb shelters or places to hide ammunition.
Dana Lewis:Can you give me an example of what you saw on the ground there that really painted a picture for you of what Hamas is doing and how it's using the civilian population?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:Every second house in Gaza has crazy amounts of ammunition and not all the people that lived on those houses were actually trained to use these ammunition. These were only hiding places for Hamas to hide their ammunition within civilian homes and because they know and they count on the fact that we will never attack citizens, they used this card in the most horrific way. You go to their hospitals and you see anti-tank missiles and you see rifles and you see grenades within treatment rooms, within hospitals. That's the reality. Did you see that? Of course, and they count on our morality to not do anything about it. And surely they were right.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:We didn't do anything about it for many, many years because we don't want to hurt any unengaged citizen. But then, when they did the brutal attack, raped women, murdered babies, demolished entire families they really let us know choice but to actually enter and, for once, actually killing everything up. And that's what we're doing. And in this sense, I think that the international support is crucial in understanding that the world, the Western world, the world of morality, cannot let terror organization demolish the lives of citizens, regardless if there is Israelis or Palestinians. We cannot let it happen.
Dana Lewis:All right, I want to bring in Karen here and thank you for being patient, karen, do you? I understand you're not on the ground in Gaza, but you're in the idea, if you're watching what's happening. Do you think that your leaders now, once the moment of rage is over, after October the 7th and the horrendous things that were done to Israelis by Hamas and the Islamic jihad and others when they entered Israel, once we get past that moment of rage five months into this, do you think that your government is on this war cabinet is on the right track? Do you think that what's happening in Gaza ends somehow to the benefit of Israel? How does this end?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:I have to say that I have full trust and believe in the IDF and everything that it's been doing.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:First of all, on the people. After this three month experience of being in reserve duties and meeting people who have left their homes, their houses, their lives, their jobs and put everything at stake, there's nothing that gives you more hope than to see how we all come together to promise a better future for tomorrow morning. In terms of our government, I think it's a complicated situation. The government and all our leaders were on duty when October 7th happened, so I feel that most of my trust really has to do with the people. The people who are on this call itself that we didn't know each other just a few weeks ago, and I think that that's what's very special in the Jewish nation the spirit of the people and their ability to come together in order to make a true difference in how Israel is going to be tomorrow morning and that's a lot of what Tikkun 2024 is trying to do bring that spirit up also to our leadership and also to our society in general.
Dana Lewis:I want to explore that a little bit and go ahead. Sorry, David, I want to bring you in here.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :Well, I feel that we started with the more like a war army perspective, but actually what connects us the three of us and all the group of Tikkun 2024, already tens of thousands of Israelis is the fact that we see that we are missing the kind of leadership that can say the truth.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :We are missing the kind of leadership that can bring us into agreeing on the crucial thing that are destroying or tearing the Israeli society apart. We're seeing the polarization, we're seeing the fighting, the separation things that are the social media and the media in general are kind of striving from, and also the politicians, and instead of getting to agreements about what should we do, what is the strategy, how to work together, how to collaborate even if we have internal conflicts. The fact that we don't have leadership that can take us there is actually jeopardizing and harming the Israeli society and our ability not only to win the war and hold the Israeli and the Jewish morality in it, but also to be strong internally and to deal with our internal challenges. And this is actually what Tikkun 2024 was created for.
Dana Lewis:Right, okay, so that's and I don't want to belittle what you've just said in any way but I mean there's this sort of kumbaya moment where let's come together, let's unify, let's, you know, stand because we're under existential threat as a nation. Put aside our differences, but in the end those differences are very real. They are very different visions of things like is there, should there be a two-state solution? Should religious parties serve in the army? Should there be reoccupation of Gaza, and in a permanent way by settlements? There's a lot of things that, given even given a spirit of unity, are not easily overcome by correct yes.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :When we say to be united, it doesn't mean to agree on everything. I think that what we see in the last 30 years not only in Israel, by the way. I think it's a global challenge is that a politician and the media is taking us to the extreme, to the polarity, and keeping us arguing and fighting and hating each other based on these things, instead of taking them as two different approaches and finding the way to get to an understanding and agreement that will be better for everyone eventually.
Dana Lewis:Matan, you started to jump in there.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:Yeah, so I think you asked about all kinds of questions, and there are different opinions about each of these questions Within the people of Deku 2024, what we are saying is that we need a ban in general from now onward. What we like in England or in the United States, you have the Democrats or the Republicans, you have the liberals or the conservatives. What we claim is that, due to the reality of the Israeli state, we must have a central government that is centered, not right wing, not left wing, but united in a sense. Each of these subjects that you just raised are difficult to solve, but they are solvable, and what we need in order to solve these subjects and many others that you didn't mention is a government that is centered and not needed to handle itself, but needed to handle the state's issues Isn't the problem, and you guys can correct me, you live there but I mean, I've covered the election process in Israel and different coalition governments.
Dana Lewis:and isn't the process, inevitably, that there are not two main dominating parties, but in the end what happens is nobody can form a majority government. So Netanyahu, for instance and he's not the first one to do it and it's not the first time he's done it in the end he marries, in this case, religious, ultra-right minority parties, promising some pretty extreme things to them, but that enables him to draw together this coalition and have power. And isn't that the problem? That consistently, political leaders who cannot form a government then go to the extreme and the minority then hijacks the majority through that political process. Anybody can jump in there. Karen, you want to try this one?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:I see Matan, I'll let him go and then I'll complete the thoughts there.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:In many ways you're right. The political structure in Israel is fractured for the past few years and that created an internal chaos. But this is the past and I'm more interested in speaking about the future and in the future from now on. I think that the civic engagement of civilians within the political life has went down very, became very low in the past decade and then in the last year became very high and kind of shifted everything to the other side. To add on to that, we had October 7th and the catastrophe and the cruelty of Hamas attacking civilians in Israel, and that pushed many civilians to understand that we don't have the luxury anymore of not being engaged.
Dana Lewis:What's changed? Karen? You can jump in here too. What's changed? Netanyahu remains in power and those parties that he formed an alliance with very much have out-weighted if I can use that term political influence over the majority. The minority still has its ore in the water and is still steering the ship right now.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:Again, I think I connect to what Matan just brought up. At the end of the day, the political arrangement reflects the civilians' desires and the way they see the future of our nation. And I think when you ask what changed October 7th and the past three months or four months that each of us had experienced I mean just looking at the people that are on this computer screen right now I live in the Gusha Tzion block. I'm considered what's called a settler, and David and Matan live more in central Israel. Prior to October 7th, I don't think the three of us were able to imagine a way to find a common discussion between us and, being that we are the ones that vote and we are the ones that give power to our government also, I think a lot of the civilian life itself also gave power to this polarization. That happened After our experience in the reserve duty and seeing that we could be shoulder to shoulder with people who are 100% different than us in our views but understand that there's something larger than just my personal sector, where I come from, and that larger thing is the continuation of the Israeli state, and all of us being able to be for this larger mission showed us that there's a different way, and what TQUN 2024 is trying to do is have that voice and that awareness that, first of all, we as reserves and the civilians have have that effect the political scene.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:We're not the only country in the world that has a parliament way of government. The question is what we as civilians, what we want from our politicians and what we push them for, and that's why we're pushing to our leadership, but also letting this unique voice that we were able to discover through our reserve duty have more of a say in power in how things are run here in Israel.
Dana Lewis:Okay, so there's some triumph in that standing shoulder to shoulder and coming together, but, david, isn't there a lot of disappointment in that too? Because you emerged from Gaza and to some degree, were disappointed that there was still just the division and, if anything, some of the fractures that had already existed before the attack on October the 7th have even widened and are still there.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :That's correct. There is a huge disappointment from the lack of leadership, and the first thing that we are demanding from our leaders is to take responsibility. We haven't seen the Israeli leadership. We haven't seen the prime minister and the government saying we are sorry, this is our responsibility. We did something wrong. We need to take this responsibility and we are only five and a half months since October 7th. They had also time to do something, to wake up, to change something in the way they lead, and they haven't. They're still fighting, they're still separating, they're still. They didn't wake up to the size of this event, this historical event. The government is not yet doing what is required in this situation.
Dana Lewis:So the first thing is to take responsibility Selfishly protecting political position.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :I think that eventually, this is the motivation or the incentives in our structure and in the media and also the people in power. The incentive is not to take responsibility, is not to pay the price and being the leaders that are needed now. And, by the way, I think this is not only a personal issue yes, there is a personal issue, but it's also a structural issue, and this is what our generation is asking for. We want to see a dramatic change, but the first thing we are reservists, we are not politicians. What we're asking is a very simple thing we're asking to take responsibility. We are asking to work towards an agreed common goal with an agreed strategy, in a transparent way, to focus on what's important and not to focus on the things that are not relevant. And what is not relevant now is sectorial and personal interests, and this is the change we want to see now.
Dana Lewis:Does Netanyahu have to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :I believe that Netanyahu needs to go, and also many others from the defense forces and many people that were involved. But this is not our responsibility. There's going to be an official committee that will investigate. I believe that some of the people need to take responsibility first and resign. I think that what we need to lead for us as a group in Tikkun, is to ask for a new agreement, a new deal to regain trust between the people and between the reservists and the government itself and the parliament in general. They failed. They need to give the mandate back to the people and we need to decide, and many of them need to go back home and resign, and many of us of our generation of new people new blood needs to go into this.
Dana Lewis:How do you get them to go If you support Netanyahu in leaving?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:I think that it's not a personal question. I think we've presented a roadmap for what we, as reservists, will represent others, what we expect that will happen. One is to take responsibility. Two is immediately to broaden the government to become as wide as possible and manage this war.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:In my point of view, this is not just a local war. This is a war of the moral world against a terror organization and in that sense, I think that even you, dana, and us, we have an alliance. We need to protect citizens and we need to make sure that the Western world can prevail and defend its values. Then we want an election date for sometime in 2024, after we'll finish to, we will finish eliminating the immediate threats that we have on the borders at the moment. And then we want a declaration of the biggest parties that they will sit in a united government also after the next election. This, on our end, will present the to overcome its challenges.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:The identity of the prime minister is irrelevant on my from my point of view, it's irrelevant as long as the biggest parties will decide to sit together, whether they are center, little to the right or little to the left, and will construct the government and only then all the rest, the other parties from the far right or far left, will be able to decide whether they believe and agree in the guidelines of this government or they don't, and then they'll sit out. That will allow the state of Israel the stability it needs so desperately in order to rebuild the security of our borders, rebuild the safety of our citizens, rebuild the economy here and moving forward towards a future, and continue being the only democracy in the Middle East that is functioning and has an alliance with the Western world.
Dana Lewis:I guess you know, in my view, from covering Israel for a long time and the West Bank and Gaza is that. And, karen, maybe I can ask you, because you live in the West Bank, you live in the Gushet Seon, you're a settlement. Maybe later that land, in a peace process, could be annexed and some land exchanged with Palestinians. But in the short term, isn't this about to get worse, that if you're unable to really defeat Hamas in Gaza which a lot of people think is impossible that it will remain in place, rather than you know? We talk about Israeli extremists and Israeli moderates, but in the West Bank you have, you know, a lot of Palestinian moderates who I've met and people with real visions of peace for the future. Isn't the problem now that Hamas just not dominating Gaza, will soon dominate the West Bank as well and this will just get more dangerous, not less?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:I feel like the answer is a part of your question. I could say living here in the West Bank and that's the own block I personally have been very, very much involved in for the past few years for close conversations, talks, meetings with Palestinian partners here, which probably doesn't fall proper in like the stigma that I'm supposed to hold, and I'm not alone, I'm not like something that stands out and very different from where I live, and maybe that's like the difference of what we see on news and media and how things are portrayed to how they are in the everyday life and I do have hope. I see it very, very complicated and I admit that October 7th gave me a big hit to my belly and a lot of scary thoughts, but I still have Palestinian friends that live here. Like Matan said before, a lot of the pain that they feel is also caused by Hamas, just like us, and it's important to keep that awareness of who the people are and who our partners can be and what happens on the higher level or through media.
Dana Lewis:Do you support a two-state solution?
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:I can't say exactly what I think the solution is and I don't know if there's a lot of also different options out there today. There's the confederation. There's different options that are out there. I can say that I have dedicated my life and will continue dedicating my life to have peace in the Middle Eastern area and specifically in Israel. I truly believe that I want to raise my children in a happy, peaceful place and I truly believe that I want my Palestinian partners and friends to also have that stability. For me to say now what the proper political solution is, I feel like that would be, I don't know, not proper to really my full understanding of what the outcomes of each of these can be.
Dana Lewis:You're not the only one that doesn't have a big picture of clarity about how do we go forward now in Israel, david.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :I want to add something to that. Really, what is clear to me, and, I think, to all Israelis, is that, first thing, we need to have security at our borders. We need to make sure that Gaza has no weapons at all. We need to make sure that Hamas is not creating a terror state and taking all the resources of the Palestinians in Gaza towards creating terror on Israel. This is first thing that we need to remember. That is, that's a month.
Dana Lewis:No weapons. You just said no weapons at all, right. And you? I don't need to tell you you've been there. That is a monstrous mountain to climb.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :Yeah, that's true, that's true, and I think that October 7th made it very clear that we have no other choice and we are actually doing it. We are paying the price of being sovereign and making sure that this won't happen again, and I think this is first priority for us as Israelis. What we can do is take care of our position, is make sure that we are doing the best that we can, and I hope that also our neighbors, the Palestinians, will do the same about themselves and about their leadership, and maybe one day we will see a better future. I hope, and I will do my best work towards that future, but what I can take responsibility on is myself, what I am doing, what are the values that are leading me and how I make sure that our country is safe and our people are protected.
Dana Lewis:This is first thing and first priority and a lot of people think you know, going back to Yitzhak Rabin and beyond that a two state solution is the answer. And it rolls off people's tongues now, people with very little historic knowledge of the conflict, of the Oslo Accords, of the joint patrols to Gaza and the West Bank, the withdrawal of settlements, the attempts to arm a Palestinian police who would deal with the extremists, intelligence sharing. I mean there has been so much that has taken place. So when the diplomats say two state solution, give them a state Palestinian homeland, let's get on with it.
Dana Lewis:I think most Israelis would say well, just a minute, I was just attacked from an area called Gaza which was largely independent. I mean, we surrounded the border of it, but it was largely independent. Now you want me to give, after my citizens have been killed and raped and kidnapped. You want me to give a larger area closer to my border, to the same Palestinians with what I would guarantee First coup. There is a question in that and that would be what do? Most Israelis hold a very different view of a two-state solution. Now is probably the most nervous, unsettling time for Israelis to talk about a two-state solution, while internationally that's being pushed by so many different leaders, including President Biden and onward Matan.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:Yeah, I think that we need to recognize reality. Eventually, the world has helped. We withdraw from Gaza completely. They had full sovereignty over Gaza. There were no Israeli forces there since 2006, 2007. We withdraw completely and we allow them to be completely independent. They got lots of help, financial help, both from the Arab world and from the United Nations, and established many things and eventually, now when we are there physically, we see that the vast majority of their money did not go to build an excellent educational system, nor health system, nor economy, nor whatever. We went to build terror tunnels, to hold women and children underneath it, to bring terrorists to attack innocent civilians and to grenades, rockets, rifles, etc. This is the reality that needs to be acknowledged. This is a fact, it's not an interpretation. This is the fact Now, from here onward.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:Of course, even this cannot be forever like that, but we must get back to T-Zero. We must demolish FAMAS, not just locally, but globally. Famas today is present also in Europe and in many other places, and here again I reach out to you as a world leader, alongside many others. We need to be united against the terror organization, regardless of their names. We need to shut down their bank account. We need to eliminate their ability to harm innocent people in Israel, in Europe, in the United States or anywhere on the globe. That is a global goal that we must work together in order to achieve. Afterwards, we, of course, need to make sure, and we are making sure. I can tell you that me personally, alongside many other soldiers who are there with me, risked our lives on a daily routine just to spare the innocent people's lives. Now, it's very difficult when you have a terrorist hiding.
Dana Lewis:There are a lot of people internationally that see the pictures coming out of Gaza that doubt that.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:I understand that and it's very sad, and I think that part of the media role is to acknowledge the complexity of having a terrorist organization hiding among civilians, not by mistake, it's by design, that's intentional. And when they do that and they fire at us from within a crowd and it's not something that I heard, it's something that I experienced, that I saw with my own eyes and to deal with this kind of reality it's very, very difficult, and anyone who tried to make it superficial or binary, as if there are good and bad here, is wrong in the way he presents the good and the bad. There is a bad in this story and the bad is Hamas' full stop. It's bad for Palestinians, it's bad for Israelis, it's bad for the Western world, alongside with ISIS, alongside with Al-Qaeda. It's exactly the same.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:If you ask any British soldier or American soldier that was in Afghanistan how the the, the scenic use of ISIS or Al-Qaeda within the local civilians. It's catastrophe, it's crazy. They want Look. Their goal is for us to hurt as many unidentified, unengage people as possible. It's literally one of their goals and they're trying to do so.
Dana Lewis:they're winning.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:They're winning on that front? I don't know At the moment, no one is winning. I think that as long as we're not, all of us, united within this global goal of condemning evilness and condemning terror organization and think that maybe they have a point, they don't. They are evil people Full stop. We want to demolish our way of life, our modern Western way of life, who puts life and freedom at first place. That's what we need to acknowledge.
Dana Lewis:Well, if their goal is civilian as many civilian casualties as possible, they're certainly winning something there and galvanizing some support for them, because there isn't any other alternative right now for Palestinians that they see at least in Gaza. Maybe they see something different in the West Bank. But how do we move this forward? I mean, david, as you want Tikan to kind of be the voice of the mainstream, not hijacked by left or right or extremists. You don't want to become a political movement. So I'm just not sure how do you affect political change where the mainstream Israelis and there are a lot of secular Israelis not in religious parties who might support different solutions with Palestinians how do you push them? I mean, the politicians are not going to lead you there, it looks like. How are you going to push them to the direction you want to go?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :So I want to share a story. On October 7, the people of Israel stood up to the size of the historical event. People went from their homes to protect people until the army and the police came. People rescued a lot of people from the Nova massacre, the music festival and since October 7, the Israeli people, regardless of their origin, they could be bedwurled, they could be religious or secular, they could be right or left wing, they came, they helped. Every place where the government was not effective, was not working, the people came.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :Matan and I, we've raised the fund to support all the people who were evacuated from the Gaza area, the Israelis that were evacuated there, to support them until the government will start reacting Okay. And so many beautiful things happen, so many initiatives from the people, and I think there is another moment now where the people need to take back the mandate. The people need to tell our leaders what we are expecting from them, and we are doing exactly that. We are saying it on the media, we are telling it to our politicians and we are creating the critical mass of people that are demanding responsibility. Unity. This is what we are asking for, and tikkun tikkun in Hebrew comes from the. It's a very spiritual and sacred word.
Dana Lewis:Means to heal.
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :It means to heal, it means to correct, it means to change something that is broken. So, if we see a system, if we see a world now that is totally broken, we are coming to fix it. We are coming to create the energetical, the consciousness, the powerful change that the people can bring in order to change the direction. We are at the crossroad. One direction can lead to a terrible future of fighting and separation and hate and fake, as we see all over the world, and another path can lead us to a better future of transparency, of working together in collaboration, of deep listening to the other, to his or her needs, to deep democracy, real democracy. I think these are the things that we are fighting for today. There is a future where the conflicts, the left and the right, can fight and kill each other, but they can also lead to a cohesion, to a sympathy that will bring better solutions. This is what we need the polarities for to bring better solutions, and this is what we are demanding today.
Dana Lewis:If there was one message that you gave to Benny Gantt when you met with him, what was the headline? What did you try to deliver to him? And he is now supposedly in a coalition government with Netanyahu I mean a war cabinet and there he is meeting in Washington with President Biden, while Netanyahu doesn't want to meet Biden. On more moderate terms of what the future looks like in Gaza, I mean just the political theater this week shows the great divisions and so-called different Israeli political groups coming together. If anything, they are becoming more separate. So what did you tell him? What message did you deliver to Benny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:We talked about. You know we are very focused in what we do. We are Zionist, we are patriots, we believe that Israel is the one and only state for the Jewish people and we need to preserve it, and by working together, we can create the synergy needed in order to preserve it and better for all the nations around us. Again, this is the only democracy in the Middle East. It's not very easy to be in this rough neighborhood with all the violence that is going on here in Lebanon, in Syria and all around us. As I'm sure you know, it's not. It's a pretty tough neighborhood. It's a tough neighborhood and we see the way, the hypocrisy. We see UNR people who were employed by UNR, an organization, belong to the UN. We actually participated and this is documented in raping women, in murder babies. This is the reality that we live in. So our first and foremost priority is to preserve this only democracy that is part of the alliance with the Western world, in order to have here a peaceful way of life.
Dana Lewis:What did you tell Benny Gantt?
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:So we said we need to work together left and right, conservatives and liberals in order to make sure that we can deliver that to the nation of Israel and to the world itself.
Dana Lewis:Did you hear anything? David, you were in that meeting too. Did you hear anything from him that made you think he got it?
David Sherez/IDF Reservist :Yes, I felt he agreed and accepted that this kind of new deal that we are offering the Israeli society and the politicians is a good plan for Israel to make sure that, instead of fighting internally, we will be united in fighting our enemies and making it to the best way we can do it, and I think that he shared with us the political challenges of making it happen, while understanding that this is the right thing and this is a good thing that we need to strive for. So I believe that he's working and trying to do the best that he can to get there, and we see also the limitation of the politicians, their interests, their challenges, the political map of Israel, and this is why we are here to make sure that our voice will be heard and this is what will happen eventually.
Dana Lewis:Here and last word to you.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:Yeah, I grew up in the US, my whole childhood was there. I made a Le'ai move to Israel when I was 18. And as I'm in this conversation, I suddenly realized something Growing up in America politics, governments, my ability to influence as a civilian was something that was very I don't know, it was very far, it wasn't immediate, and I think that's something culturally that needs to be understood what it means, what the life in Israel is. Even your questions about Palestinians, two state solutions who are enemies, are how close Everything here is intertwined. So when you see I don't know these three people that didn't know each other a month ago, when we're I don't know all in our 30s, 40s, what kind of influence can we have? I think almost every one of them. I and again, I only moved to Israel when I was 18. And I know at least three people who sit today in the parliament. Being fairly new here, I already have those connections and I think that's culturally something that needs to be understood about what it means to live, to live in Israel.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:When you ask what our influence is, when you're a civilian in Israel that cares and I think that's something that's very special about living in Israel there's no one that doesn't care. Everyone is very, very passionate about what this country is and does everything they can to influence it. Your voice and your influence has almost an immediate effect. So the power that Tikkun 2024 has has has brought together in this past, in this past month. It's not just like I don't know some, some in some far off state, this group of people who came together, it's. It's in the talk of almost every news channel, every um Shabbat table that I'm at um from far places, because it's a very close knit culture. And also, when you speak about our relationship with Palestinians and a two state solution and where our enemies are, I, I I mean, I'm looking at my window and I have Palestinian neighbors and I think that's something that's important to understand our, our life and the complexity of what Matan said before good and evil and where everything, everything is intertwined. And that close knitness also makes it very complex to understand but also allows us to have huge influence on how tomorrow morning is going to seem.
Karen Sokolov/IDF Reservist:So when we say let's influence the leadership, it's us. It's us taking responsibility, it's us speaking up, it's us tomorrow morning speaking to politicians, but also ourselves deciding who's who's going to be in politics tomorrow. I have friends that are in politics today. It's I mean, it's not something that I experienced with my with my friends that I grew up in high school in America. It's really something that's very far off. So I think that's one of the beauties that we have here in Israel. Um, and and there I see a lot of a lot of hope, and not just what the three of us are saying, but the thousands of people who have already joined us in this call for unity. Um and and I'm confident that it will have its effects up and down and all around on what Israeli society needs today extremely confident.
Dana Lewis:Yeah, well said, and I guess the the enemy are the extremists who hijack the, the conversation um and more, and the enemy is the al-Kamas and the terrorist who kill us.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:I want to acknowledge the fact that 20% of Israeli citizens are Muslim Arabs, and they were slaughtered as well. They were kidnapped as well. The enemy is one and its name is Hamas. Among us, there is a dispute and we are we are citizens working towards solving this dispute, but we must this thing where the camp matters, language matters, enemy are terrorists.
Dana Lewis:Yeah, and the enemy can be disillusionment with the process, because if you have a new found hope, as a lot of Israelis did in the nineties, um with with peace accords, they became very quickly disillusioned when bombs started going off in cafes and on buses and Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, and so even even well-intentioned um, it's it's very, very complex situation.
Matan Yaffe/IDF Reservist:We will continue to fight for peace because eventually, any, any army manoeuvre is only in the service of the reaching out for peace, and Israel has done it again and again and throughout years. We had many successes, egypt included, jordan included, and eventually we will get there. But we need to understand that. You know, as you said, we live in a very rough neighborhood. Our head is always reached out for our neighbors and we'll continue to do so. And I think that when you speak and I worked for 10 years with the Bedouins in the negative, who are all Muslims and when you ask them about their identification with the state of Israel, they are with us completely. When you would ask them after the October 7th about Hamas, they would say it's a disgrace for their religion, it's a disgrace for humanity, it's a disgrace for the Arab nations, it's a disgraceful stock and that's what we need to be clear about it. There's no slapstick to you.
Dana Lewis:All right, I think we'll have to leave it there and I really do appreciate talking to David Cheriz, karen Sokolov and Matan Yaffe. Thank you so much, guys. I appreciate it and good luck.
Dana Lewis:Thank you All full-time experts, and that's our backstory this week on Israel and the war in Gaza. I think the hope and belief that things will get better by these army reservists is a shining light, but Israel's future won't be defined by a spirit of unity, but rather real decisions that will have to be taken in soon about how it lives with its Palestinian neighbors and whether decisions will be made sensibly taken by peace-seeking mainstream majorities on both sides or, as it has seen many times in the past, extremist, hijacked decision-making. Hamas has played a major role in fomenting hate and conflict, but Israel also has its far-right extremist elements that bear responsibility for the current conflict too. I'm Dana Lewis. Thanks for listening to Backstory and I'll talk to you again soon. ©. Bf-watch TV 2021 you.
