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BACK STORY WITH DANA LEWIS
Dana Lewis is a veteran World Affairs Correspondent. He's been everywhere. From global war zones to the streets of London where he is based.
He has been based in Jerusalem, and Moscow.
And he loves talking to people about whats behind the headlines. Award winning. "A real in the trenches reporter". Great interviewing skills and easy to listen to.
BACK STORY WITH DANA LEWIS
Escalating War in Gaza And Dangers In The Middle East
Can Hamas be removed from power in Gaza?
In this probing discourse, we engage with Israeli Army Spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner and Palestinian lawmaker Mustafa Barghouti.
We aim to shed light on this intense conflict, the war in Gaza, the contentious ground war, and the emotive information war.
What are the military objectives - their achievability, their focus on targeting Hamas' regime, and the potential rise in terrorist activities should they succeed. We also critically evaluate the challenge that comes with minimizing civilian casualties and the difficulties of planning for multiple fronts in these battles.
Adding a new layer to our discussion, Mustafa Bargouti, brings forward the importance of a democratic alternative for Palestinians. We delve into the cancellation of the Palestinian elections, the looming power of illegal settlers, and the effects of a continued settler colonial system.
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of Backstory. I'm Dana Lewis. On this Backstory I talk to the Israeli Army spokesman about the war in Gaza, the ground war and the information war, and from the West Bank, palestinian lawmaker Mustafa Bargouti, about chances for peace despite increasing violence, some of it aggravated by attacks from Jewish settlers on Palestinian communities. Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner is an IDF spokesman and he joins me from Israel, shalom sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:Shalom.
Dana Lewis:First of all, we've just been listening to US Secretary of State Anthony Blinken, who is there on the ground in Israel, and it now appears that certainly the US administration and we had already heard from President Biden is pushing for a humanitarian pause. Do you think that that will happen? Will Israel agree to that, and what are some of the inherent risks in that?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So obviously that's not really something that is being discussed by the IDF.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:The IDF is busy now, on Day 28 of our war against Hamas. Of course we do see the humanitarian mission as part of our overall mission and that's why we are facilitating evacuation of Palestinians from north to south, from the north of Gaza Strip to south, encouraging people to go. That's why we've determined a humanitarian zone in the southwest area of the Gaza Strip, the Muassi area. That will be a safer zone, even within the safer zone of the south. And, of course, the coordination of access to Gaza for humanitarian goods, food supplies, medical supplies, water all coming in from Gaza, from Egypt, from Rafat, into the Gaza Strip, something like I think yesterday it was around 80 trucks a day and it's increasing almost every day now over the last week and that's part of the mission Will there be a humanitarian hiatus? If the government instructs us to do so, the IDF, of course, can hold fire. We are concerned that Hamas will take advantage of that and that is why anything that goes in cannot alleviate Hamas's situation from a operational perspective.
Dana Lewis:And in fact that was referred to by the Secretary of State, where he's saying there are deep discussions about the why, how and when and the fact that this has to help people on the ground. It's not to help Hamas and for them to take advantage of that.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:Yeah, that's precisely the concern we can't help to. Just two weeks ago, hamas went into a UN facility, a UN compound, and took food, medical supplies and fuel for their tools. And this was on the second week of the war, something that the UN announced and then later erased because they were afraid for their lives. It just goes to show the type of organization we are facing. We know we released, for instance, a conversation between a health administrator in the El Shifa Hospital today, saying that beneath the El Shifa Hospital there's half a million liters of fuel that could supply the hospital but is going to Hamas's operations. It just goes to show why we're concerned. What are our concerns about? And, of course, fuel going into Hamas means that they can operate on the ground. They're using it to power their ventilation system, their water systems, all everything they've built on the ground.
Dana Lewis:So I don't think in my time of covering Israel, going back decades, I have ever seen the push and the effort by the Prime Minister's office, by the IDF spokesman's office, to engage media and try to get their message out. I mean, you were fighting a ground war, but you're also fighting a propaganda war. Is that fair?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:Absolutely Terrorist organizations have nothing except for the ability to amplify their terror. And that is why we understand that, from day one of their attack against us, the hourglass of international legitimacy is not in our favor, on one hand, but also that they will be doing everything to manipulate emotions of the world, of Israeli society, on different levels, so civilian when they are releasing videos, for instance, of hostages, they are trying to expose the most raw nerves of Israeli society. And when they intentionally prevent Palestinians from evacuating areas where we say we're going to strike, it's because they want to exasperate the situation on the ground in order to create more international efforts against us. So it's a huge challenge.
Dana Lewis:I mean, I know you probably personally are affected too when you look at what happened on October the 7th and Blinken looked visibly shaken today when he said he looked at another video of one of the terrorists chased the father and sons into a shelter and then shot the father in front of the kids. The kids ran back in the house and the terrorists went into the house and ate from the refrigerator and Blinken noted that. The outrage at this event and the brutality we have to ask ourselves, why has it faded so quickly? Certainly not in Israel, but why has it faded, do you think, around the world? And why shouldn't it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So, first of all, it shouldn't, because what Hamas has done over the last 16 years of power, they've normalized their place as a legitimate player at the table. Israel in itself had never up until now, up until the 7th of October, created a strategic objective to remove Hamas from power, and so, in its own action, it was basically legitimizing the presence of Hamas in the region. And therefore, when Hamas has conducted their most abominable attack against the people of Israel, against the South there was, you know the question was automatically okay, how much time can we tell this story of why things needs to change? And when we look around at the world leaders, everybody understands that the end game needs to one where we rid the world of Hamas as a governing authority of the Gaza Strip. And the only question is how do we do it and what is the expense? And this is the challenge. It's a challenge for the military, it's a challenge for the world, but the world does need to rally around that idea that the end goal must be removal of Hamas. They cannot be allowed to hold the Gaza Strip as a governing authority to build a terrorist army, as they did to utilize all the tools of government for acts of terrorism. The world will be patient if we are susceptible and attentive to the expectations of the world and we'll see what happens in the diplomatic arena after the meeting with between Secretary of State Blinken and Prime Minister and the president and so on, and there might be some changes, but it won't change the end goal. That has to change. It needs to be a fundamental paradigm change and I think Israel and the people of Israel won't settle for anything less. The bar is now set very high for Israel and I think it was Golden Mayer said once that if I need to be liked and pitied or despised and dead, I'll be despised, and I think this is the general mind state or the psyche of most Israelis.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:That woke up on the 7th of October to the sirens, and this is how I I'm a reservist, I've been out of virus, retired from the military five years ago I never, ever thought I would be in uniform again representing the state of Israel and the IDF specifically.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:And when the sirens sounded on the 7th of October, on the 7th of October at 6.30 in the morning, when I was lying there next to my wife in bed and the sirens in my phone were going wild and my wife opened her eyes and said what's going on? And I said the sirens are sounding down south. And, as I said, down south, then the sirens near where I live in Tel Aviv, began to ring. So we went down with my daughter down into our shelter in the house and when I came up from the shelter I'd already seen the magnitude on telegram channels, on social media, of what Hamas was doing.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:And I said to my wife this is something we've never experienced in our lifetime and I hadn't even grasped the magnitude of the actions of death that they'd done. And so Israeli society, all of Israeli society and if you would have asked me a month ago, peter, what is the Israeli society? How is it? And I would have probably said torn to pieces, but around this everybody has unified, everybody is united in the idea that this is our existence.
Dana Lewis:Let me ask you about the fighting Gaza to take Hamas out. Do you think that these are achievable military objectives? And right now, why is it focused on Gaza City and surrounding Gaza City?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So the north of Gaza is the beating heart of Hamas' operations, of its decision-making capabilities, of its execution abilities. So any government has a center of government. So over the years we've called Hamas a terrorist organization, but they are actually an entity with institutions and processes and finance and ministries, and is a government. So in order to one make sure they don't govern Gaza, we go after their center of gravity, which is the government. So yes, of course it's achievable, because once you take down the government, they can't rule. If they can't rule, they don't have the tools of government. That means they can only focus on being a terrorist organization, and being a terrorist entity means that we will pursue them and hunt them down, and we're doing that in parallel as we take down.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So I would say absolutely yes. The idea of destroying Hamas as a governing authority, as an organization that has the tools of government to conduct terrorism and organize terrorism against the State of Israel, at the end of this will be no longer existent, if you'd ask me. Ok, but what about the hearts and minds of the ideal and the ideology of Hamas? We're not focusing on that. That is not our mission.
Dana Lewis:But if I can jump in, and I don't mean to interrupt, but you're saying just not remove them as the administrative authority in Gaza, but also as an operating terrorist organization. Which means their ability to manufacture and deploy weapons, their ability to strike Israel with rockets. I mean the whole deal.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:That's what we are after to change the security paradigm. They had the pleasures and the luxuries of government in order to build this industry of terror, and that will no longer exist. This is the end game. It has to change. I can't see any other option for Israel. I worry the message that's coming to our enemies in the region is that you can butcher 1,400 or so Israelis and get away with it.
Dana Lewis:Let me ask you, when you hear these calls from Blinken and elsewhere where they say we have to reduce civilian casualties because there will be alienation of Palestinian civilians, he said today if we show indifference to that, do you worry, as an army person, as the spokesman for the IDF, that the moment you start talking about reducing civilian casualties in Gaza, that means probably you rely less on airpower and more on boots on the ground and soldiers, which means that your soldiers probably are going to be in harm's way even more?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So we have substantial forces on the ground now. We are mobilized extensively, we are expanding our activities. We've encircled Gaza City, as you pointed out, and the Air Force have. I would say their operations are still going, but they're now more focused on support efforts to support the ground forces. Up until now the Air Force was the main I would say the main effort, but now it's more rolled back. It's not that there aren't more strategic attacks that can be conducted by the Air Force, but, yes, indeed, the ground forces and the naval forces are conducting more and more activities.
Dana Lewis:Is the fight fierce? I mean, how would you characterize it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:Absolutely there are face-to-face urban warfare is being conducted. They come out of tunnels, attack our APCs or our personnel carriers, our tanks. They drop, use drones with explosives on that they use on our forces. So the understanding in Israel that this is a long war ahead, it's not something that's going to be a quick fix. It's going to be an extended war, it's going to be an extended period of time.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:The magnitude of their institutionalized terrorism cannot be erased with a quick brush, a quick draw of the brush. It needs to be strategic, it needs to be systematic and it needs to be extensive in its result. We, to date we are now in the last five days of the ground operations that have expanded over time there have been 24 soldiers killed in action, which is, and if you compare to the amount, the hundreds of terrorists that have been killed in those exchanges, there's obviously nothing really comparable. But it is the type of warfare that we expect that they will try and come out of the holes, come out of the tunnels, conduct attacks with RPGs and small machine gun fire and it's going to be a long, challenging battle.
Dana Lewis:What also is challenging is that you can't look. It seems to me it gazes in isolation. You are being fired on by the Houthis from Yemen. Increasingly, there are exchanges on the northern border with Lebanon, with the Hezbollah and Hassan Nasrallah will no doubt make more threats in his speech today and the strings are being pulled by Iran. Russia's playing a part in Syria. It's difficult, when you take a look at the scope and breadth of this, not to worry about it expanding and just to look at it as one kind of tip of the spear in Gaza, isn't it? And I'm sorry for that being a complicated question, but it's a complicated problem right now.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So the nature of Israel, the IDF's planning process for over several years now is that there is never an isolated arena. The understanding is that if there is one front, it's usually going to be two or more so. Indeed, when we at the beginning of this war, when I was recruited on the 7th, 8th and 9th of October and colleagues like myself, we were recruited on mass 300,000 reservists it's the largest recruitment of reservists in the history of the IDF and so many of those have been pre-positioned on the border with Lebanon to face and confront Hezbollah, to combine with the regular forces. There's a substantial force there. Many of those reservists are across the different services, so it's Air Force, naval Forces, ground Forces, home Front Command.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:We are prepared for a confrontation also with Hezbollah, also potentially from Syria. The aerial defensive capabilities that have been proven by over the last few days, with the surface to air missile cruise missiles being shot by the Houthis, have been intercepted by F-35 jets and also aerial defense systems like the Arrow. And so, yes, the working assumption is that there is a possibility that it will go broader than just Hamas and our focus will be shifted. We are saying very clearly that Hezbollah needs to decide if they represent Iran or represent Lebanon. If they represent Iran, it might be at the expense of Lebanon. And our message to Lebanon is very clear Take charge of what Hezbollah is doing, because you have a lot to lose. And our message to Hezbollah is also look what we're doing to Hamas, step by step, stage by stage, strike by strike, and really think forward if you want to cross that threshold.
Dana Lewis:Lieutenant Colonel, last word to you, and you've been very generous with your time. Can we go back to where we started? On the hostages, I know you put up a tweet the other day talking about how many are held and the numbers have changed a little bit. But I just real, every time I see the numbers of children and the ages of some of those children and we all hope that they can somehow be released in negotiations with an organization that's not very famous for caring about humanity. But can you just make your final comment, just on those hostages that are being held in the efforts to try and get them out while you fight a war, while you try not to harm them in the process?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:So the hostages are a national priority, to bring them home, and it's one of the missions of this war is to bring them home. Today, there are 241 hostages being held, but that number goes up and up and down. Every day changes slightly because more intelligence is coming out clarification that somebody was actually killed so it's not being held hostage but maybe dead body different levels of understanding of what is going on as the dynamics of this war develops. We released, rescued one hostage, ory Magydish. She was a soldier in the observation posts, so gathering field intelligence, and she was abducted on the 7th of October. And she was rescued in a heroic intelligence-based mission. And we are utilizing all of the tools at our hand in order to identify, seek out and find the hostages.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:While there are operational components that are ongoing in order to bring to the release and also the diplomatic efforts that are also underway, hamas are responsible for their well-being, as well as demanding that the International Committee of the Red Cross have access to assess their situation, their well-being. As far as I know, that hasn't happened yet. They need to be brought home, they need to be let free, as you said, babies from the age of nine months old and elderly over the age of in their late 80s and anybody in between men, women, children. It's heartbreaking, it's devastating and it is what Hamas does. So they need to be brought home. They need to be brought home now. We are doing what we can in order to bring them home. Just one example we dropped leaflets in Gaza a few days ago suggesting that there might be financial benefits if you give up information that brings to their release home. So we're utilizing all of the tools basically in the spectrum of hostage situation, and that's one of the core missions of this war.
Dana Lewis:Bring them home, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner. Thank you so much, sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spokesman:Thank you.
Dana Lewis:Mustafa Bargouti is a Palestinian physician, an activist, a politician. He's been a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council since 2006,. Also a member of the PLO Central Council. Mr Bargouti, welcome, Thank you. You know I've known you a long time. You may not remember me, but with Canadian TV I used to interview you, often in the 90s and after Am I mistaken? Or when you were a doctor, you know, I used to say are you going to get involved with the Palestinian Authority? And you used to say, no, I'm a doctor, I'm not a politician. What happened?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:I had to become a politician because I couldn't change the health policies and health system without changing the political system. And did you change it? I think we are managing to have a greater influence. Yes, and you know, I even I am now convinced that we represent a very important third line in Palestine, a democratic third alternative which is not affiliated neither to Fatah or Hamas, and I think we have a very important future because the Palestinian people want to see this third democratic alternative, the voice of what I call sometimes the silent majority.
Dana Lewis:So tell me about what is that third line and what does it represent for the silent majority of Palestinians who are not being, to a large degree, not being heard right now?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:It means many things. We founded a movement called the Palestinian National Initiative with people like Haidar Abdel Shafi and Dr Edward Saeed and hundreds of other Palestinian intellectuals and political leaders, and it has become the third force probably in Palestine, and we are calling for a combination of three things Struggle to achieve freedom and ending occupation and the system of apartheid that Israel is practicing against us, but also we're calling for internal democracy and the right of the people to democratically elect their leaders, and the separation of powers, the executive, judiciary and legislative powers and all the aspects of true democracy. But we don't mean only political democracy. We also speak about social democracy, and that's why a third very important component of what we do is the issue of social justice, women's rights, rights of people with disability, eliminating poverty, etc. We've been calling for nonviolent resistance and we've been leading while nonviolent resistance for a very long time, and we've become probably the most unifying power in Palestine, calling for national unity of all Palestinians and the creation of a unified leadership on the basis of democratic participation.
Dana Lewis:Unified, nonviolent. Where does that leave you? With Hamas and Gaza.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:In dialogue with them and I think we managed to convince them with the value and power of nonviolence, and they did stick to it for a very good period of time. The Israel continued, of course, their attacks with severe violence and, of course, you see what's happening now. But we are in dialogue with Fatah, with Hamas, with everybody, because we believe that what we need is really national unity and a unified political program and a unified political struggle. Thank you, thank you.
Dana Lewis:Definitely something unified, because, with the Palestinian Authority split now since 2006 with the elections in Gaza and Hamas took over in 2007. I mean there's been basic paralysis of Palestinian leadership. Would you agree?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Totally, and the only solution to that is free, democratic elections, and I think we've been calling for democratic elections and we were about to have them in 2021. And we even met in Cairo all the Palestinian political groups 14 of them. We agreed on a whole scenario of conducting elections. We even agreed about how we can run elections, even in Jerusalem, which Israel is obstructing as an act of nonviolent resistance, but unfortunately, the Palestinian Authority and President Abbas cancelled the elections and it was clear that Israel is adamantly against elections, and the United States of America, the great democratic country, was not also supporting having democratic, free elections in Palestine, and we lost an opportunity.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:We would not be in this situation had we have elections then, because elections would have produced unified Palestinian Legislative Council and eventually, new presidential elections, and we would have ended this situation of one party rule in Gaza and one party rule in West Bank, especially that all the results of all the polls at the time showed that no single party, neither Fatah nor Hamas, can have absolute majority, which meant we would have had a truly democratic, pluralistic system, and that's exactly what I think Palestinians need. And now, when I hear the Americans and Israelis speak about a new leadership in Gaza. I think this is a big humiliation to the Palestinian people and a big insult, because it's not Israel who should decide who would lead us. We need, the only way, is to ensure that Gaza is not separate from the West Bank, and what we need is really a democratically elected leadership that would lead the way to having a true independent Palestinian state or a one democratic state.
Dana Lewis:How can you resolve the fact that Hamas is dedicated to eliminating Israel, has carried out these atrocious acts of violence inside Israel? How do you surely you must feel that they have to be removed?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Look, I don't agree or accept the killing of any civilian or that Israeli or Palestinian, but at this very moment, the people who are being slaughtered at the Palestinian civilians more than 9100 of them so far and the number keeps increasing. Every five minutes we're losing a Palestinian, every 10 minutes we lose a Palestinian child, and the Israeli air strikes continue. You cannot condemn the killing of Israeli civilians without condemning the killing of Palestinian civilians. But Hamas, hamas is ready to accept to state solution If Israel is. Hamas is ready for.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:To state solution is if Israel is ready to accept a Palestinian state in the West Bank, gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:I think they've just repeated that by their own leader and that was the program of the National Unity Government, which I mediated in 2007, which was headed by the head of Hamas and the deputy was the representative of FATA and I was the only spokesperson of that government, which everybody besieged till it collapsed in after 86 days. I think that all Palestinians would accept to state solution, but the one side that does not accept that is Israel, and the one side that blocked all possibilities of negotiations is Netanyahu and the man who came to power under one slogan to kill Oslo process and to kill the two state solution and to kill the potential for any Palestinian state was Benjamin Netanyahu, and he's the one who blocked all negotiations with any Palestinians since 2014. So, in reality, you cannot accuse Palestinians of not accepting to state solution when Israel has been the power that has blocked that road and is killing the two state solution with all the settlements that is expanding in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis:I'm nodding my head because I agree with you, not because I hear you, but because I believe that Netanyahu did indeed take every opportunity he could to kill the peace process, even though, when he came to power after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, he said that he couldn't and wouldn't, but in fact, at every step he has opposed a two state solution. What happened and I hate to ask you because you're not Israeli, but you're a neighbor and you understand your partners in the so-called Oslo Accords what happened? You speak about the silent majority of Palestinians. What do you think that happened to the silent majority of Israelis between the signing of the Oslo Accords and today, when all they want really is revenge and removal of Hamas as a threat in Gaza? Where is the silent majority that supported peace?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Two things happened to that majority. They shifted to the extreme right and that is because they felt they can keep occupation and keep exploiting our land and our water and our workers at no cost. But most Israelis don't want it anyway. But most Israelis don't want it.
Dana Lewis:I mean really most Israelis don't want to do their army service in the West Bank and they don't. I mean most Israelis don't go to the West Bank. Most Israelis, the settler factions, yes, but mainstream Israelis were willing to have a two state solution.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Yeah, but the majority of them support the extreme right-wing parties. That's why they are in power. And there is another important development one should not forget about, which is that because Oslo agreement included a very big flow, and that is of course the fault not only of the Israelis and Americans, but also of the Palestinian leadership, because it allowed the continuation of Israeli settlement expansion. The number of illegal settlers grew from one one one hundred twenty one thousand in nineteen ninety three when Oslo agreement was signed, to more than seven hundred fifty thousand today. These settlers became a huge political power. Now they have fourteen members in the Israeli Knesset out of one hundred twenty, and some of them are holding very vital positions, like Smotrich, who is the minister of finance and also he's the minister of the West Bank. Being very is in charge of internal security.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Smotrich and being very, who are both settlers, have been advocating the elimination of any Palestinian right in the on the land of historic Palestine, and both of them both of them have said Smotrich said that he will fill the West Bank with settlers and settlements so that Palestinians would lose any hope of a state of their own, and eventually they will have.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:We will have one of three options either to immigrate, which is ethnic cleansing, or accept a life of subjugation to Israelis, which is apartheid, or die, which is genocide, which that they are conducting now in Gaza. So it's not just the responsibility of these extreme people in Israeli government, but also it is the responsibility of the so-called moderates in Israel and they are not moderates, in my opinion, like Labid and Gantz and the Labor Party and others who voted for the state national law of Israel in the Israeli Knesset, which said that it's Israel, meaning the land of historic Palestine, is a place where the right of self determination is exclusive for Jewish people. So the public in Israel shifted to the extreme right, and that's why I don't mean by that only the Likud, but all these parties, even the religious parties, who used to be sort of moderate in their approach, changed and they're a decalized, and that's what you see, that the result of that, what we see today, how do you bring back that portion of Israeli society that probably would support a two states solution?
Dana Lewis:I mean, how is there while the bombs are falling in Gaza?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Maybe, maybe.
Dana Lewis:And, by the way, while Israelis are kidnapped and children are held by Hamas, is there some hope left that something positive comes from this?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Two things are happening. First of all, I think everybody now remembers that the issue of Palestine is not only about occupation but also about a fact that we have been subjected to a settler colonial system and that settler colonial system is trying to finish its job by ethnically cleansing Gaza completely. They cannot do it up till now because Egypt is standing up to them and because Palestinians refuse to leave and become refugees again. But that's their plan ethnically cleansing of Gaza and then gradual ethnically cleansing of the West Bank. They've already started ethnically cleansing of Area C To 13 Palestinian communities have already been affected by the terror of Israeli illegal settlers. So that's their plan. But maybe, with all the horrors that are happening and all these victims on both sides, maybe this will change the formula in the sense of telling the Israeli public that there is a cost of occupation, there is a cost of the system of apartheid, there is a cost of continuation with these dreams of ethnically cleansing and other people. There is a price they are paying.
Dana Lewis:Maybe this will bring many people to the rational thinking that either way, it doesn't, because even Rabin I don't think Rabin did the peace process out of charity. I think that he said over and over again if we don't do this now 30 years ago almost if we don't do this now, israel will face more extremism and more violence, and it will threaten the state of Israel. The Oslo peace accords were put forward, really as a life ring to both sides, don't you think?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:Right and many Israeli leaders, including, I think, houd Barak and Omar, said that Israel will become an apartheid state if there is no Palestinian state. That's for sure, but the reality is today Israel is trying to solve the demographic problem, which is that our numbers now on the land of historic Palestine as Palestinians is equal, if not a little bit larger a little bit larger than the number of Israeli Jewish people, regardless of the fact that 7 million of us are refugees in other countries. So that put Israel in front of a very big challenge either to state solution immediately, which means removing the settlements from the West Bank, or accept us as equal human beings in one democratic state. The Israeli fascists now in the government are trying to solve that formula in a different way, by ethnically cleansing Palestinians in Gaza and maybe later in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis:What is going on in the West Bank and I appreciate your time and I know we're drawing to a close here, but as we speak, I mean a lot of people don't realize what's going on in the West Bank. We see what's happening in Gaza, but there's a lot of settler movement and violence taking place in the West Bank, right?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:now, and I want the public to understand that what happened in Gaza was a result of what was happening in the West Bank in the first place. History did not start on the 7th of October. Before that, israeli army and settlers have killed 248 Palestinians in the West Bank, including 40 children. They attacked Islamic and Christian holy places. They spit at Christian clerks and worshipers. They tried to change the nature of the most holy place for Muslims, which is the Aqsa Mosque, and Netanyahu spread the word everywhere that he's going to normalize with Saudi Arabia and all Arab countries and liquidate the Palestinian issue. And he had the guts, two weeks before the war started in Gaza, to stand up in the United Nations General Assembly and show the map of Israel that included the annexation of all the West Bank and all of Gaza Strip and all of the Golan Heights, openly declaring that in front of the whole world community. Of course, that led to a reaction, which you see today.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:But what they are doing now in the West Bank is even horrible. They've just they already killed additional 132 Palestinians including it that were killed directly by Israeli illegal settlers, and they are now putting the whole West Bank into clust. They divided it into clusters of ghettos 224 ghettos separated from each other by 650 military checkpoints, many of which are closed. They're attacking us everywhere, viciously, harassment everywhere. They already arrested 1,750 more Palestinians, making the number of prisoners in Israel e-jails 7,000, including 200 children and more than 60 women, and more than 2,000 are under the so-called administrative detention, which means they are in jail without knowing why, without charges, without due legal process. This was the reason why we had what we have in Gaza, and the two places are totally connected. You cannot separate one from the other.
Dana Lewis:But how do you assess Israel's main goal now, its military goal, stated by the IDF and empowered by the Israeli cabinet, to remove Hamas from the leadership of Gaza, to replace Hamas? Is there any of that realistic?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian Lawmaker:No, and they cannot eradicate Hamas, because Hamas is not an army or an organization. Only Hamas is an idea. And even if they reoccupy Gaza completely, this will not make Hamas disappear. And they left Gaza mainly because of the Palestinian resistance in the first place. And they didn't really withdraw from Gaza, they just redeployed and today they are trying to ethnically cleanse Gaza. This is the real goal and if they fail, that means their whole operation has failed and they will come back to the same thing. I told you about either two state solution or one democratic state where we can coexist and live together in equality. There is no alternative to that, because we, the Palestinians, we the Palestinians and I speak on behalf of everybody here we will never accept to be slaves of a system of occupation or apartheid, or accept to become refugees again.
Dana Lewis:Mustafa Bargut, good to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you my pleasure In that backstory this week. On British TV this Morning, a Jew and a Muslim spoke about the need to bury hatred, not to force people to pick a side and we are people first. Attacks on civilians are nothing short of abhorrent and to be condemned. More talking between Palestinians and Israelis needs to start occurring, led by the international community. It's time for a major effort to settle the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, but first the Israeli hostages need to be released. Hamas needs to go. Israel has a right to defend itself, but Netanyahu's right-wing government also needs to disappear for the sake of peace. Thanks for listening to Backstory. I'm Dana Lewis and I'll talk to you again soon.
