Join us as we traverse the complex terrain of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with Yossi Beilin, a key figure in crafting the original Oslo peace accords. Yossi's insightful reflections on the current crisis in Gaza shine a light on the international outcry and the potential routes towards a resolution.
Beilin blames Israeli P.M. Netanyahu for the current crisis in Israel, and for allowing Hamas to strengthen, ignoring what was a ticking time bomb in Gaza.
Now is the time he says to come to a two state solution agreement.
Join us as we traverse the complex terrain of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with Yossi Beilin, a key figure in crafting the original Oslo peace accords. Yossi's insightful reflections on the current crisis in Gaza shine a light on the international outcry and the potential routes towards a resolution.
Beilin blames Israeli P.M. Netanyahu for the current crisis in Israel, and for allowing Hamas to strengthen, ignoring what was a ticking time bomb in Gaza.
Now is the time he says to come to a two state solution agreement.
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of Backstory. I'm Dana Lewis. Israel, under tremendous pressure to call it all off yes, the most deadly, atrocious, bloody, barbaric attack on Israeli since the Holocaust by Hamas. But the international outcry over Israel's attack on Gaza to remove Hamas is unprecedented, too Spiking because of a bomb attack on a Gaza hospital. Israel blames Islamic Jihad, palestinians blame Israel. The pressure on Arab leaders increasing by the day, by their own residents, the threat of this conflict spreading only growing. But Israel's lost over a thousand people to a terrorist organization that is committed to its destruction.
Dana Lewis :On this backstory, I talked to an Israeli who was one of the great voices for peace, with actual, practical ideas on how to make it happen, not to allow the entire region to be hijacked by the extremists. That's what's happening right now. But Yossi Baylan, an architect of the original Oslo peace accords, believes that the majority of Palestinians and Israelis deserve their voice to be heard and if they get a chance to speak through this war, it will be about a peaceful solution. Have a listen, because Baylan is specific about what a peace treaty can look like. Yossi Baylan is a former Justice Minister and Deputy Minister. Foreign Minister of Israel. He participated in the back channel negotiations that eventually led to the adoption of the 1993 Oslo Accords, a framework agreement to end the Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
Dana Lewis :Welcome, mr Baylan, thank you. Thank you for having me, and you are, if I may personally say, one of the most measured, sober, reasonable voices from Israel that, as a journalist, I've had the pleasure to interview you many times, especially during my time in Jerusalem. Can I first of all just get your reaction to this crisis in Gaza, especially in light of the fact that President Biden has just landed? Arab leaders have canceled meetings with him because of this bombing that has occurred at the Gaza hospital, where both sides are accusing the other one of being responsible for it.
Yossi Beilin:Yeah, of course it is not Israel. I'm convinced that the option which was showed by the Israeli Army spokesman about an Islamic jihad-failed rocket which was launched and did this crazy, crazy damage to innocent people, that this is the right one. Israel will never do something like this intentionally, and you know Israel. It made many mistakes and it but nothing like that could be done. I mean, all these events happen regretfully. Civilians are the victims. This is one of them and you are crying for the victims, but it doesn't mean that Israel does such things. Even if there were people hiding in the hospital and for Israel it would be essential to eliminate them there would have been some warning. I mean, there is no chance that out of the blue, an Israeli rocket will be launched to a hospital.
Dana Lewis :This is just, in many ways, starting, isn't it? Because the ground war hasn't even taken place. Israeli forces, which are assembling outside of Gaza, are not on the move. We all assume that they will be. This is only going to get worse in terms of the propaganda that Hamas and people who support Hamas are using. It will get worse, will it not?
Yossi Beilin:I can imagine, yes, people will be killed, regretfully, on both sides.
Dana Lewis :And why is that a danger to your neighbors? Whether it be Egypt which canceled meetings with President Biden, or yeah, doing.
Yossi Beilin:Dale and.
Dana Lewis :Jordan, or I mean, where does it place them in terms of the pressure that they are under with their own street and public?
Yossi Beilin:Exactly, it is the public opinion. They understand that it is not Israel, including Abu Mazen, I can assure you. But he cannot just ignore it and have diplomatic meetings while something like this happens and the people in the street believe that it is the Israelis who did it.
Dana Lewis :Do you believe there's another way to take Hamas out in Gaza, or is our boots on the ground the only solution? It's the only solution.
Yossi Beilin:It's the only solution. I mean, there is another way to deal with the matter and to say, okay, we should again find some Modoso Vivendi with the Hamas and, despite all these things, we will ignore it and we'll negotiate with them of course indirectly, because they will never talk to Zionists and then we will wait for the next round. I'm not there. I'm not there anymore. This was my view in the past. I always preferred, of course, as you know, not to have a violent and counter violent conflict if possible, but this time, after what they did on Saturday, two weeks ago, enough is enough. You cannot go on like nothing. You have to get rid of this leadership, to paralyze it and to replace it by others. It can be the Palestinian Authority, which is the best option, and if not, perhaps a consortium of Arab countries like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan or others, or maybe the UN can do something there. As long as it is not Israel, it's fine with me.
Dana Lewis :Don't you have to have a solution before you go in there?
Yossi Beilin:How? What kind of a solution, with whom? With the Hamas, you mean?
Dana Lewis :No, I mean, don't you have to know what the end game is before you go in there to remove Hamas?
Yossi Beilin:You must, of course. Actually, the world goes to war without even thinking about the morning after, and this is why I am talking about it all the time In the media, in Israel, abroad. The morning after is more important than anything else. If you don't know how to end it, don't enter. You must know what is your aim at least. Maybe you will not achieve it, but what is your aim? Just to get rid of the Hamas people is not enough.
Dana Lewis :Then you get rid of Hamas. Do you think that that's achievable? And then, do you have any belief that Abu Mazin's Fata organization, the PLO, could come in there? And again, because a lot of people don't remember, they were already there and in fact more than 50% of Gazans weren't even born when the Asura Erafats, Fata were on the ground. But do you think that, in practical terms, Fata could go in and fill that vacuum? A more secular, a more a power, an entity that is willing to at least recognize the state of Israel and have peace negotiations?
Yossi Beilin:Yeah, and much more pragmatic. I mean, that is, those who try to portray the Hamas and Fata, if they are from the same family and want the same thing, how those who did not want to have an agreement, like Netanyahu himself. He even preferred Hamas for a while because he thought that if Hamas is not demanding a state, then it is better for Israel, which was stupidity. Stupidity and dangers. And he allowed them to stay there and to enhance the rule in Gaza and to get the money from Qatar and whatever, rather than to try and confront them. I can understand that confronting them is very difficult because it is costly. The death toll will be paid, I mean, no question. But to think that there are better counterparts?
Dana Lewis :than the PLO. This is stupidity. Do you blame Prime Minister Netanyahu for the intelligence failure for?
Yossi Beilin:blaming him, the intelligence failure. You know, I blame him, but I must tell you something about it. The main blame is about the policy, the ideology, the belief that you can have peace with other Arab states and to leave the Palestinian problem for the end. This is the problem, you know. The intelligence. Of course, when something like this happens, the intelligence is to be blamed and all those who were above the heads of the intelligence may pay the price. But this is much more difficult to blame, because what happened on Saturday, on the 7th of October, is so unexpected. It is a real black swan out of the blue. There was not even a trigger for this. You could say, yeah, they reacted to something, nothing whatsoever. These guys prepared themselves for a long while for a crazy attack, beheading babies. Who would think about such things, such acts? It's really beyond any horizon of pragmatic people. Of course, netanyahu will not remain the Prime Minister, I can assure you, and he will pay the price. But this is not the main thing, because nobody could expect something like that.
Dana Lewis :Pardon, who pushed the launch button? Do you think Iran Like why you said it was out of the blue, a Black Swan event? There was nothing explainable, there was no trigger. So why now? And who do you think initiated it?
Yossi Beilin:I know, I don't. I tend to think that it is Hamas, I mean, but maybe they were directed by Iran. In my view, this is almost secondary to the main thing that we have to make peace with the PLO. They are our partners and with them I believe that we can solve the Palestinian issue by having, and the Israeli problems by having, a two-state solution. The biggest blame that I attribute to Netanyahu is that he did, since he did not want to partition the land and didn't understand that, if he doesn't partition the land, there will be no Jewish state, because the minority of Jews will, God forbid, control a majority of Palestinians. Because he did not want to take this needed decision, he was ready to bypass it by other ideas, not understanding what he's doing. This is, I believe, a much bigger accusation than saying that he is in charge of the fact that the intelligence was not aware of what was prepared under our laws.
Dana Lewis :You were in the government when Yitzhak Rabin, the Prime Minister, was assassinated. You, shimon Peres, rabin himself, were saying at the time over and over again if we don't do this now, the state of Israel will eventually be threatened that we can't go on fighting in the occupation, and that's why the Oslo Accords were in many ways, supported by the Israeli public at the time and Netanyahu, who said he would not turn back the peace process. I mean, if there was anybody at the top of the pyramid who did that, it was Netanyahu, was it not?
Yossi Beilin:Undoubtedly he is. The Israeli should be blamed for actually swathing the Oslo Agreement by saying I'll do it my way. If you remember, as the head of the opposition, he promised to cancel the agreement. Then, when he became Prime Minister, he understood that this is impossible, or maybe this is not the best idea, and he said to himself he's not a stupid guy. Why should I cancel it if I can just block it by saying that I will move if they move? So, and who is the judge? Whether they did the writings, the Palestinians? He is the judge, was it working.
Dana Lewis :When you look back at the redeployment, when you look back at the joint patrols, there's a generation you'll see that have forgotten all of this right.
Yossi Beilin:No, not.
Dana Lewis :And even the reporters on the ground now. I mean, there are a generation of journalists who were never there. For any of this Was it initially working? Did you think that? That peace plan? Not all of it and there were shortcomings, but you were on the right track.
Yossi Beilin:Yes, this was our feeling in the 90s, but I must say that very soon after the Oslo agreement, in the massacre in Hebron, when an Israeli doctor, an army officer, killed 29 Palestinian worshippers, I began to have my doubts whether it would be possible to implement the agreement. And violence played a very, very crucial role in our story, and those who did not want the partition of the land on both sides used to say okay, you see now. You see, now that you expose the other side, they don't want it.
Yossi Beilin:They are the violent and eventually we find ourselves in the current situation where an interim agreement of five years, which had to end by May the 4th 99, is still the one behind the Palestinian parliament, the Palestinian government, the Palestinian presidency and all these things. So they have the tools that they got in the interim agreement, but this is something that cannot prevail for 30 years and shouldn't prevail for 30 years and should be replaced by a permanent agreement and maybe, maybe, the dark moment in which we live today will allow us to get back to the peace talks with another government in Israel and hopefully with. I'm trying to convince people that it would be possible to have an Israeli Palestinian confederation, the Holy Land confederation, something which is offered by a group of Palestinians led by Dr Hiba Husayni and myself and others, so that the issue of the settlements will not play a role, because this is the biggest obstacle for peace right now. It may not be. It may not have been the obstacle in 93. It was a major issue, but it was not a sine qua non-for peace.
Yossi Beilin:But now it is, and the way that we are suggesting is that all the Palestinians, the Israelis who will find themselves on the other side of the new border that we will draw with the Palestinians meaning in the Palestinian state will be allowed to remain there as Israeli citizens and Palestinian permanent residents, and the same number of Palestinians will be allowed, or Palestinian citizens will be allowed, to Israel as Israeli permanent residents. If you do something like this, this is not the only reason for the confederation, but I will not get into details. But if you do something like this, you take off the table at the major impediment for peace for any Israeli future prime minister, and if you do that, I believe that we can really use the black moment in order to make peace, because usually you make peace after war.
Dana Lewis :Last question to you. I've heard you say it in another interview and I was somewhat surprised, but you were very firm about it. Can you just explain really quickly that you believe that in fact all of these people who say, oh, peace process is impossible, the agreement will take? You know what is the agreement going to be. It'll be years in the making, but in fact you've said, if I understand you, hawks have continued on anyway, despite the violence, and in fact most of the agreement is doable right now.
Yossi Beilin:No question, I mean in 93, if you asked me what is going to be the solution, I personally would say the two-state solution. This was not the official view of my government, which was very careful not to refer to the permanent agreement before time. But I did, but I could not give you all the details. But since then, in the last 30 years, we had very important, I believe, attempts. The most important one is the Clinton parameters of 2000. My humble contribution was my agreement with Abu Mazen in 95, the Berlin Abu Mazen agreement of 95. Another is the Geneva initiative of 2003.
Yossi Beilin:And you have today a very significant material of things which were agreed upon, including the issue of Jerusalem and refugees, and you name it In Geneva. You have 500 pages of annexes. So we go to the details of the details. So nobody can say, oh, we need now 20 years in order to write an agreement. No, if you are serious and you are ready to do that, it can take a year and you can take the government material. Not everything is still relevant as it was years ago.
Yossi Beilin:Adopt it and go for peace.
Yossi Beilin:I mean it will be the two-state solution on the 67 borders, with land swaps, whether it will be according to the Geneva initiative or another initiative, but it will be something between 2% and 4% of the land for full compensation, and the refugees will mainly come to the Palestinian new state and not to Israel. But there will be some other arrangements for them and, of course, compensation financial compensation and in Jerusalem, the Temple Mount will be under the Palestinian sovereignty, but they will not change the status quo and the boiling wall will be under Israel I mean, this is the big thing and the Arab neighbors in East Jerusalem will be under the Palestinian state and the Jewish neighbors will be under Israel. I mean, we know the solution, we really know the details of the solution and we are speaking about drafts or agreements which were really adopted by both sides not the lunatics, not the lunatics, not Ben Gvill and not the lunatics on the other side, but they were agreed upon. So it should be the victory of sanity and we should be much more careful than before about those who try to kill any agreement and even to sacrifice their life in order not to have the partition. Yeah.
Dana Lewis :Take the voice away from the extreme minority on both sides that have hijacked the entire peace process.
Dana Lewis :You see, Beilin, it's really an honor to talk to you. Thank you so much. Thank you, thank you. And that's our backstory on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the war in Gaza. It will only escalate in the coming days as Israeli forces move on the ground into the Gaza Strip. Interruptions are expected in the West Bank, possibly Lebanon drawing in the Hezbollah. So many dangers ahead and, of course, the war in Gaza will be brutal. I'm Dana Lewis, thanks for listening and I'll talk to you again soon. Music, music, music, music, music, music, music, music, music, music, music.